David Walker, iCell Consulting LLC

[00:00:56] Sanjay Parekh: Today's guest is David Walker. David is the owner of iSell Consulting LLC, a consulting firm specializing in media relations, compliance, and wire telecommunications. He lives just outside of Atlanta, Georgia. David, welcome to the show. 

[00:01:11] David Walker: Glad to be here, Sanjay.

[00:01:13] Sanjay Parekh: So, I'm excited to have you on because there's a lot of interesting aspects of your background that I've actually had the good fortune of being able to touch upon over the years. But before we get into all of that, give us a kind of a two-minute background on you and what got you to where you are today. 

[00:01:29] David Walker: That's a big question. My college days were spent near the Macon, middle Georgia area. I graduated from college with an MBA in business management. So, I went from there into the AT&T world of telecommunications, starting with Southern Bell and then going to BellSouth, then BellSouth Corporate and then BellSouth Sailor, and ultimately back to AT&T, where my career started in 1978 with Southern Bell under the AT&T umbrella. I finally wound up 38 years later with AT&T and that on my paycheck. So it's interesting how that evolved, but I wound up in the AT&T Southern Bell departments in a network organization, which was not my intention with a business degree, but nonetheless, that's where I was. And I managed to work my way up through the ranks in that department because it was very interesting to me how the technology worked from the landline world into finally the wireless world, which is where I wound up. But it was really a good evolution for a career. Real balance to see all the things happening. We were just talking earlier about technology with devices, to see the people talk using their cord phones in the wall, and then the neat thing was to have your home phone be a cordless phone. That was the big deal. But then you went from that to having cordless things in your car, plane, or boat doesn't matter, you’re wireless everywhere you go. So that's the new world we're in. It's really exciting to see how that's going to go. 

[00:02:53] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah, exactly. So, what was it that originally drove you to get a job in telecom? Like, why did you make that move? 

[00:03:03] David Walker: That's a very good question. My father, who was also a career telephone, not an engineer, he was a marketing guy, but he was in the telephone business with Southern Bell for 30 years. And also my brother was a 30-year man. And my sister was a 10-year person in telecommunications with Southern Bell. So, the whole family's got cone, bell shaped heads for how we evolved in that world of technology. My father told me to go to Atlanta, get on with Southern Bell, take any job they've got. And the job that I took was as a clerk inside a network organization. So, that's how I started network engineering in a company where I had no clue what they did. Then it just evolved from there. 

[00:03:44] Sanjay Parekh: I'm imagining you had never done and never learned anything about network engineering or anything else like that in college.

[00:03:50] David Walker: No, there was no real training for that. And even in the wireless world, when cell phones started to kick around in 1983 and 1984, the only way engineers learned the technology was from the vendors who made the equipment. So, Motorola, AT&T, Ericsson, Astronet, those companies taught us how to use their equipment in our network. That's how we became wiser and bolder. 

[00:04:13] Sanjay Parekh: So, thinking back to those days, did it seem like those vendors actually knew what they were talking about or were they just groping around in the dark too? 

[00:04:21] David Walker: These engineers from these companies were previous landline builders of equipment. So, when they converted a switch, for example, a telephone switch, which is the kind of a hub of the wheel; when you build those in the wireless world, there's no difference between the wireline switch and the wireless switch. It's just how the information gets out of the building. So, in one case, it goes through wires in the wireline world and the wireless goes to an antenna at the top of a tower. But all the equipment infrastructure is basically the same. So, those people were trained on their equipment in a wireless and wireline world simultaneously. 

[00:04:56] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah. Okay. You spent a long time in the Bell system and then landed back. AT&T is an interesting thing, right? They broke it apart in the 80s and then it just reformed later on. And then you ended up coming back to the mothership there. So, in leaving there, was this your first time doing something entrepreneurial or had you done something entrepreneurial before, like in college or when you were younger? 

[00:05:21] David Walker: No, this was definitely the first time. It's, in my world, you'd hire on with a company, you'd stay there. There was no moving company to company to company like it is today with young people that are able to take their talents and shape them into different jobs or careers that they want to make. In my old world, it was like, you're a tired, not tired, but embedded kind of person to grow through the business however you want to make it through. But what I was going to say was, a lot of people who left the company would go on to other consulting jobs. So, my inclination was when I retired was to find some part of my career that I did very well or thought I did very well. Maybe parlay that into an extra career outside the company. So, others had done it. I just followed their suit, formed an LLC for $400 with the state of Georgia, and I was on my way. 

[00:06:08] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah, and what made you make that move? Was it just, you'd been AT&T long enough, and in the system, you just wanted to retire and do a little bit of work? Or what was that thought process?

[00:06:18] David Walker: Kind of the latter part. They offered a retirement package. So, there was an attractive time to leave knowing that might be the last package or incentives to get people out of the business. So, I just took advantage of that and then formed a company after six months of being out of the business to re-enter.

[00:06:36] Sanjay Parekh: Okay. So, you start a consulting firm on your own. Are you still a one-man shop? 

[00:06:41] David Walker: Yes. Yeah. 

[00:06:42] Sanjay Parekh:  So how has that been in terms of starting this? What were your challenges that you ended up facing early on? 

[00:06:49] David Walker: Total control is a nice thing. It also can be strenuous at times. So, I was able to just manage the work as I wanted it. AT&T told me that as the cases come in for what I was doing for them, if I didn't want to do the case, I could decline and then move on to the next one. So, they work with me pretty well with that. So, it was not hard to do and navigate. 

[00:07:12] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah. So, what was it that you were doing? So, you started consulting and you were working back for AT&T again?

[00:07:18] David Walker: Yes. So, my expertise at the end of my career was being able to look at telephone records that were created by our billing department. So, every customer in our business office has a bill they pay every month with us. Bills for text messaging, voice or data, and those three things were the pieces of information that were on this massive document that would go to the customer for them to pay. In the world of criminology, when people are out there making, doing bad things, they use their phones, they use their devices, and the law enforcement people are able to take those records, find the individual's name, find the individual's numbers that were called or dialed and then track that back to where that person might have been, had they been holding the phone during the commission of a crime, for example. So, my first case I had was in South Georgia, where someone had done something wrong, and they wanted to know where they had come from to arrive at where the crime scene was. And I was able to use the telephone records to track this individual and the phone all the way back to South Carolina. So, our phone records showed cell site by cell site by cell site to the town of South Georgia and where the crime occurred. And they put two and two together with this individual having the phone and owning the phone, and his records indicating that, to whether crime occurred in the time and date stamp that was associated with, and we convicted that person pretty quickly. 

[00:08:42] Sanjay Parekh: So, was this, you were working for AT&T as a consultant or for law enforcement?

[00:08:48] David Walker: I was working for AT&T. So, I was their custodian of record. That was my title. So, I was the person who would interpret the records and share that information with people who didn't completely understand it and the district attorney's office or the defense for that matter and help the court as a whole understand how these records were created and used to track phones that happened, phones as they occur in the network.

[00:09:11] Sanjay Parekh: Super fascinating. So, AT&T would be a part of these proceedings because, they were the service provider and so they would be subpoenaed or whatever. And so, they would send you to show up for them and explain what's going on. 

[00:09:29] David Walker: Exactly.

[00:09:30] Sanjay Parekh: So, for you, how many years did you do this and are you still doing it?

[00:09:32] David Walker: I did it for seven years and then semi got out of it again in 2022. So, I'm waiting on that next big event for me to get back in. But right now, I'm skating out of the business. 

[00:09:43] Sanjay Parekh: And so, in those seven or so years, how many cases would you imagine that you've gone on for AT&T?

[00:09:50] David Walker: I've probably worked on over 200 cases. So, there's a lot. Half the cases would usually get resolved before my appearance; plea bargain, plea deals, because obviously when the evidence is presented to the defense in the way that it was, it's pretty clear that the individual that we're looking at had some proximity to where a crime and date and time it occurred and therefore makes it pretty evidential, although circumstantial, they might have been involved.

[00:10:18] Sanjay Parekh: Okay. So, this is interesting. So, you had this consulting business that you started and was it only AT&T that was your client or was there anybody else? 

[00:10:27] David Walker: No, I did on occasion represent other carriers if they let me, whether it was Sprint or Verizon. Phone records in general are pretty much standard. They're how the information is transmitted to the cell site, to the telephone switch, and then back to the database where the billing records are created. All that's kind of a standard thing. The format may be different slightly, but nonetheless, the information is all there. So, there were a few cases where I did other types of billing, whether it was, even landline. For example, I did a landline case for credit card fraud. And then other cases, might have been for Sprint or AT&T or Verizon. I kind of helped out with them. 

[00:11:06] Adam Walker: Support for this podcast comes from Hiscox, committed to helping small businesses protect their dreams since 1901. Quotes and information on customized insurance for specific risks are available at Hiscox.com. Hiscox, the business insurance experts.

[00:11:27] Sanjay Parekh: So, this is interesting. So, you really had one major client. Did this worry you in terms of income and having a throughput or was it steady anyways, and you're like, there's always going to be cases so, it doesn't really matter if it's one client. 

[00:11:41] David Walker: I knew there was always going to be cases because it would get busy at different times of the year. Toward the end of the year, it was pretty busy because people were trying to wrap up cases before the close out of a calendar year. So, usually November, December were heavy. The January, February time frames were a little easier. And again, I coul pick and choose which cases I want to support. And there are other individuals in the company that do what I do. So, I was not the only custodian of record representing AT&T in the United States. There were a number of others who also did it. 

[00:12:11] Sanjay Parekh: How is it that you picked cases that you wanted to work on? Was it like locations that you wanted to visit? 

[00:12:17] David Walker: Yeah. Yeah. Some of its certain airports that I've been in, I don't want to go back to.

[00:12:24] Sanjay Parekh: I feel you. There's certain airports I never want to go to either. 

[00:12:27] David Walker: It is difficult to maneuver and the time and the weather, it was not fun. So, if I wasn't having fun and enjoying it, then there was really no need to do it. But some of them were, I went from California to New York to South Florida to Texas. I've been around the country. Even Alaska was one case. It was quite a tremendous burden in Juneau, Alaska, where I had to fly into Seattle and puddle jumper from Seattle up to Juneau and then Juneau back to Seattle and Seattle back. You're changing time zones. It's crazy. That wore me out. So, I knew then, I said, this might need me to slow down a little bit. 

[00:13:02] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah, no, more Alaska cases. You didn't happen to see the northern lights while you were there. Did you? 

[00:13:07] David Walker: I did not.

[00:13:08] Sanjay Parekh: Oh, man, that would have been the icing at least on the cake if you go through all that pain. At least you get to see the northern lights. Yes, Juneau is too far south I think to be able to see those. Okay, you mentioned before like you're the one in charge and you get to do all the decisions, and everything, was there anything that made you nervous about doing this or was it all, hey, this is just for fun on the side?

[00:13:29] David Walker: It was for fun on the side. That was my attitude toward it, except obviously very serious, of course, what I was doing. But nonetheless, at my age and my time in the business, there was really nothing I hadn't seen that was worrisome. So, it was just something you had to do and just understood clearly what you're presenting to the court. As long as you stay on track, there's no issues, really. 

[00:13:50] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah. Do you ever remember a time when you were stumped on the witness stand? Like something came across that you were like totally not expecting?

[00:13:58] David Walker: Yeah, there was one time and I had to pause and ask for a recess while I went to the phone and called my AT&T compliance people and said, this is happening now. This is the record they're asking and here's how they're posing it. What do you recommend? And so, they walked through information that I needed to provide back to the court. And it was, I did it real easily that way. But yeah, I was definitely stumped a few times. Yeah. 

[00:14:20] Sanjay Parekh: Okay. Interesting. For most people, I think that would be a nerve-wracking experience. Like for you as the custodian of record or the witness, it's not like you're going to go to jail at the end of it. So, I guess a little bit lighter stakes than whoever else is there. 

Let's switch gears a little bit and talk about kind of health and wellness. Like you did a lot of traveling probably for these cases, in and out and having to be in a suit and tie and sitting in the courtrooms and probably have seen a lot more cases than any of the rest of us have. How did you manage the stress of all that and everything else in life? How did you manage that? 

[00:15:00] David Walker: Yeah. I prepared myself, obviously having done it a few times ahead, the next case is going to be this, and you know what to expect. The worst part of everything that we did was, or I did rather was the waiting, you had to wait for the witness ahead of you to finish and then they go to recess and then they go back to that witness. They drag it out a little more, then they go to lunch. And then by the time they've done all this, it's just a long time sitting. There was one case in Atlanta where the defendant spoke Portuguese and that was his primary language. And he understood a little bit of English. So, the prosecution was asking the defendant questions, and he was struggling to answer. So, the defense for this person said, “Y'all got to get an interpreter in here.” And so, they said, hang on. They went outside the court; make some calls and they found an interpreter in Atlanta, who speaks fluent Portuguese and brought this person in to interpret. When they got seated, the judge asked for their declaration paperwork that said they're official and are capable of understanding Portuguese and then translating it. They didn't have the paper, so we had to wait another two hours for them to create a document to go back to certify this person on the stand. And then, of course, you can imagine that drags the trial out twice as long because every word that's said by the prosecutor of defense had to be re-said in Portuguese and back and forth. So, it took twice as long. So, I'm out, it took me about eight hours that day in court sitting around just waiting for this all to happen. 

[00:16:28] Sanjay Parekh: Just waiting for your turn. 

[00:16:29] David Walker: Yeah. And then around five o'clock I got pulled in, so I was very happy I got pulled in at the end of the day, but it was rush hour by then here in Atlanta. Not fun. 

[00:16:32] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah, exactly. How long was it for your testimony for that case, if you remember? 

[00:16:36] David Walker: That was, that was the amazing thing. Sometimes I was on the stand for 40 to 50 minutes. Other times, two minutes. And then, yeah. Some of these, I flew to California one time. I was on the stand a total of five minutes. Because of the way the prosecution would present my evidence and me as an expert to the court. They really didn't have anybody expert on their side to challenge what I said. So, rather than embarrass themselves, they just deferred or defaulted whatever the prosecution submitted me as, but a lot of times it was pretty quick. That day, I think I was on stand for 10 minutes. 

[00:17:09] Sanjay Parekh: That feels like it should have been something you phoned in, than fly out all the way to California just for that.

[00:17:16] David Walker: I did a few, I did do a few teleconference cases which was interesting because court people are not really good at audio visual things either. So, we struggle from different times with Zoom back in the day to try to make these cases work. 

[00:17:30] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah, I can't figure out if it's better for you which way, because if you don't fly out there, you don't get the frequent flyer miles and the hotel stays and all those perks, but man, it's pretty painful to get those perks and just all the time, and then knowing you were only on stand for five or 10 minutes, it's just like, why did we do all of this? 

When you go on the road for these things, do you have any kind of routine? Do you try to make sure you find a good restaurant near the courtroom so that when you're dragging out all day, you don't have a bad lunch? What's your routine there? 

[00:18:00] David Walker: Most of the time, the district attorney offices that we appeared at would provide the housing, the hotel, and then, a dollar amount for your meals was how they presented it to us. So, I was usually booked in a hotel of their choosing, which was always something mid-range to nice. So, no issue there, but obviously somewhere near the courthouse so I could get there by walking or they pick us up and take us to the court, right? 

[00:18:25] Sanjay Parekh: Anything about the food? Because I imagine, do courtrooms, courthouses have cafeterias? 

[00:18:31] David Walker: Some do. And that's the low end of things. And then you have to wonder about what you want to eat in a cafeteria like that. So, what's the safest thing I get without getting poisoned?

[00:18:44] Sanjay Parekh: So, would you eat at the courthouse, or would you go elsewhere? 

[00:18:46] David Walker: Based on the time. So, if I had a time, short, I'd be there. If not, I'd walk down the street to something I could trust.

[00:18:54] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah. You don't want to get back and find out that you're in contempt of court for not being there on time and get thrown in jail. That's the bad way, and I'm sure there's worse ways of ending up in jail, but that's a really unfortunate way of ending up in jail. 

[00:19:06] David Walker: It definitely is. 

[00:19:07] Sanjay Parekh:  So, thinking back on your career and just moving on and doing this as a side hustle, it sounds like entrepreneur, is there anything that you would go back and do differently?

[00:19:20] David Walker: Probably not. Not off the top of my head. Because everything that I did had been from, doing it before and seeing how it worked out for me. And then the advantage of AT&T’s consulting role was, I told you there were other people in the country that did it besides me, so I was able to work with the leadership team at AT&T Compliance to coach me in ways to answer certain questions because they've done it before, too. So, I always had a good bit of confidence in style and language and presentation and content with these people to help me understand how a particular audience might be at that moment. Obviously, some cases were the judge only, some were jury. Some were a combination of both. And again, trying to describe to a jury of lay people how a telephone system works is not the easiest thing to do. So, I had to break it down in the simplest of terms and then try to make sure I didn't over talk or talk too long to make sure everybody understood the creation of the record and what they were intended to do and how we're using them now. 

[00:20:24] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah. Do you feel like that's gotten harder or easier now as technology has progressed, and people have gotten more acclimated to technology?

[00:20:33] David Walker: I think it's much easier now. There's software out there now that can scan these records. And then plot all the towers a telephone uses as they drive through any network at any date and time. So, they use that software now to show in court that phone X, Y, Z was here, date, time stamp, and length of conversation or text message, and then make sure they associate it to the individual. And if they can put those two together, that's pretty strong evidence that they were using the device, in an area where the crime may have occurred. 

[00:21:06] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah, I feel like, 10 or 15 years ago, to most regular people cell phones were almost magical. They didn't understand any technology behind it. Now I think people do basically understand it, but there's other parts that are still magical, that you don't understand.

[00:21:22] David Walker: Okay, it was a like, you mentioned your experiences as well in the case I had with credit cards, the IP address was the indicator of where that person was using their device to log into a system that was extracting information about a person. And they were trying to say they weren't using but, obviously machine to machine connections with an IP address is pretty solid stuff. People are getting more and more educated about that and sensitive to not using their device when they're committing crimes, but they usually forget. They're either so proud they did it or they got away with it that they call or do something to coordinate and there you go. 

[00:22:00] Sanjay Parekh: I mean I've seen cases where people will log into other people's Facebook account in the houses that they've broken into and log into their account. I don't know why. What are you like posting about that? Is that the most urgent thing in the middle of a crime? I don't know because I’m not a criminal, so I don't understand their thought patterns. Okay. Last question for you. What would you tell someone who's thinking about taking the leap like you did? And starting a side hustle or small business doing consulting work like this. 

[00:22:30] David Walker: I think I would do what I did in a similar way, which is talk to people who have done it. And that's what we're doing now. But making sure that you understand the outcome of potentially for your benefit. And then what obstacles you may encounter. So, if you can understand the net gain out of it and the net effort that it takes to get there, then I think you're in a pretty good start on beginning a side hustle, like you said, to make something work. And it's an adventure step. Some people, do start businesses that are global immediately and others struggle and struggle and never get anywhere. So, it takes a little bit of perseverance as well to try to begin and stay the course to make sure you're successful in whatever you want to do.

[00:23:11] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah, perseverance. That's the name of the game. Okay, David, this has been fantastic. In case our listeners need to find and connect with you, they need an expert witness on some telecom stuff. Where can they find you?

[00:23:22] David Walker: Right now, they can't.

[00:23:27] Sanjay Parekh:  You are super stealthy, no website, no nothing else that they can connect?

[00:23:31] David Walker: They probably can message me on LinkedIn, but that's probably the closest they'll get to me. 

[00:23:35] Sanjay Parekh: There you go. David, this has been fantastic. Thanks for coming on. 

[00:23:38] David Walker: Thank you. I appreciate your time.

Thanks for listening to this week's episode of the Side Hustle to Small Business Podcast, powered by Hiscox. To learn more about how Hiscox can help protect your small business through intelligent insurance solutions, visit hiscox.com. And if you have a story you want to hear on this podcast, please visit www.hiscox.com/shareyourstory. I'm your host Sanjay Parekh. You can find out more about me at my website, www.sanjayparekh.com.