David Sturgess, Foundry Counseling

[00:00:55] Sanjay Parekh: Hi, welcome to Hiscox's Side Hustle to Small Business Podcast. I'm excited to have David Sturgess here today with us to talk about his experience being a side hustler and then a small business owner. Welcome to the show, David. 

[00:01:07] David Sturgess: Hi, thanks for having me.

[00:01:08] Sanjay Parekh: I'd love for you to give us a little bit about your background. Kind of a couple of minutes about who you are and what got you to where you are today. 

[00:01:14] David Sturgess: All right. So, I've worked in the mental health field for about 17 years. Started out at psychiatric hospitals for about 10 to 12 years of that. And then in that last year of hospital life, started a private practice on the side. So doing that one, two nights a week and then got to a point where it was certainly sustainable and growing. And so, talking with my wife, decided to leave the hospital world and go into entrepreneurial small business ownership for the first time. And started my own private practice. 

[00:01:45] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah. What drove you into wanting to be a therapist in the beginning?

[00:01:48] David Sturgess: Fascinating. That we all deal with it in some way, shape, or form. So, from a mental health well-being standpoint, not everyone is dealing with a psychiatric, critical, dangerous level of care, but that was a lot of my hospital work. There's a lot of folks, majority of folks that are dealing with just everyday stressors or a difficult health diagnosis or financial problem, life transition problems. And we can't always go to friends, families, coworkers, to get that. We need a third-party objective person that's not going to be judgmental and opinionated. And so, it was a great blend, to still be able to help people and still be capable of dealing with psychiatric, critical issues. But less intense than that hospital life. 

[00:02:38] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah. Coming out of school, you started straight into the hospital? That was the first stop? Okay. What was that like for you? Fire hose? How was it?

[00:02:46] David Sturgess: From a graduate school standpoint, we've got about three and a half years’ worth of graduate school and then part of that is practicum internship, for nine-ish months. It's been a while — I can't remember. But I got a job at that hospital that I did my internship with. It was a pretty good transition in the sense that I knew the environment, I knew the population we were working with. Things of that nature. And a lot of folks will do their internship wherever they can find it. And I was really intentional on trying to get to that location and so it worked out. And then, rest is history. 

[00:03:26] Sanjay Parekh: Entering into that atmosphere, even though you'd interned there before, were there surprises for you in terms of the business or anything else? 

[00:03:34] David Sturgess: Yeah, especially the business side. Healthcare is a service industry, right? And so, understanding the difference of, insurance is not health care, right? Insurance is a way to pay for health care. Regardless of somebody's opinion or belief there's an aspect of doing the health care from a physician clinician standpoint. And then the business side of, how do I keep my doors open? And so, navigating that on a hospital level, you've got different insurance companies that you're working with, you've got self-pay folks. How do you create services to be able to provide what people need? And so, learning that and why can't we just do therapy the way it should be done? It's not compromising the clinical work and at the same time, you’ve got a lot you have to account for on the back end. 

[00:04:29] Sanjay Parekh: To make sure you get paid. 

[00:04:30] David Sturgess: Right. Yeah. Because if you don't get paid, you can't keep doing it. You can't keep the doors open. 

[00:04:35] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah. Okay. So, moving forward. How many years was it there at the hospital before you started the side hustle?

[00:04:39] David Sturgess: I worked in two. First location was about several years and then I transitioned to another hospital here in the Metro Atlanta area and that was for about five or so years. Populations were a little bit different. The first one was much more Medicaid, Medicare, DFAX, DJJ, type of population. The second one was more of that private insurance self-pay type of facility. Your population's changed, your business model’s changed, and so understanding, as I got more in a supervisory kind of level, what are those KPIs, right? What are we looking for…

[00:06:03] Sanjay Parekh: Key performance indicators.

[00:06:06] David Sturgess: Right. That allow us to keep doing what we want to do. 

[00:05:23] Sanjay Parekh: Right, right. Okay. So, you're there some number of years and then decide to side hustle essentially and do your own thing. And was the intention from the start that you were going to go full-time eventually if you could build that up or was it purely just supposed to be a side hustle?

[00:05:43] David Sturgess: It was a side hustle in the sense of knock down the debt, play money, kind of stuff, right? And then it became more of that time freedom, right? Being able to not have to ask for time off to leave early and go to a kid's concert or vacation. The other side of that coin as an entrepreneur, you don't have paid time off, right? You're not working, you're not getting paid. It's just you, hence the group practice. But the idea of being able to go and have that time freedom was more valuable to me than just a salaried paycheck, right? And so, as my wife and I started to understand, where's our kind of margin, then it was a matter of, okay, this has been done before. I'm not the first one doing it, so let's find some wise counsel and go for it. 

[00:06:41] Sanjay Parekh: So, the initial was really about eliminating debt that you were carrying. Was this debt from going to school? 

[00:06:48] David Sturgess: Yeah. Student loans. 

[00:06:49] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah. Yeah. Student loans. It's a common thing. So that was the main driving factor of doing all of this. And then over time you realize, oh, there's these added benefits potentially. 

[00:07:52] David Sturgess: Yup. 

[00:07:53] Sanjay Parekh: But what did you feel when you started that you knew, or you didn't know that you had to figure out? Like obviously you'd had some experience with insurance and those kinds of things, Medicare, Medicaid. And how did that inform kind of building up this side hustle and eventually the small business? 

[00:07:16] David Sturgess: Yeah, I think understanding the concept of the business side of things and not having ever done business. I had always been an employee, outside of pushing a lawnmower around the neighborhood and, that kind of lifestyle at 14. So, it was understanding, and I had a mentor tell me, business is business, regardless of the industry. Business is business. And what are those aspects of a small mental health practice, right? Versus a car dealership. Product, service, you still have numbers to manage. You still have things to track, right? And then you get to a point where, okay, if I want to grow this or do I want to keep it just me? That type of question. So, navigating some of those things that you just, you don't know because you don't know, right? And then that idea of I'm just a clinician, not just a clinician, right? But I went to school to be a clinician. I didn't go to school and get an MBA or something of that nature. 

[00:08:21] Sanjay Parekh: Had you taken any business classes? In school? None?

[00:08:25] David Sturgess: None. Podcasts and some books until I found my business consultant. Who's in Savannah and her practice is a 15-person practice. And so it was that idea of, she's done it. I just need to duplicate what she's done. 

[00:08:41] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah. So, is this somebody that's also a therapist? 

[00:08:25] David Sturgess: Yep. 

[00:08:41] Sanjay Parekh: So has a therapy practice that's not here. And so, she does this for other people, or you just happen to find her and you're like, hey, can you be my...

[00:08:52] David Sturgess: Yeah, she's got a group practice and then she's also got a business consulting firm, just about clinicians, helping them scale. And that's where it's a matter of, you can do it. You just need to be able to learn how to do it. 

[00:09:08] Sanjay Parekh: Right. And what do you think that helped you with, or at least shortened the cycle for you, having somebody like that help you out? 

[00:09:14] David Sturgess: Not have to make as many expensive mistakes, right? You can nickel and dime anything and everything, right? Everybody has the program, everybody has the book, everybody has the subscription. All that's fine, and we don't necessarily need all of it, right? And so, we, I think, have these expectations as brand-new small business owners. I've got to do this, this, this, and this. And out of ten of those things, you need to do three. The other seven might just be fun and look cool. That's a waste of money. And time. And to have somebody say, yeah, that's cool, but wait two years, or yeah, look at it from a percentage standpoint, not just a dollar standpoint, and so that was the type of stuff that kind of helped me relax. And have a level of confidence because I had somebody that I could pick up the phone or shoot a message to and gain some clarity. 

[00:10:24] Sanjay Parekh: Respond and tell you if you’re being dumb or not. 

[00:10:35] David Sturgess: Right, yeah. It wasn't just blind Google searches. 

[00:10:24] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah. That can be not the greatest place to find the right answer.

So, you mentioned mowing lawns. Was that your first entrepreneurial experience as a kid? Nothing before then? 

[00:11:54] David Sturgess: No. 

[00:10:24] Sanjay Parekh: And successful? Was it just you mowing lawns or?

[00:10:35] David Sturgess: Me and a buddy.  

[00:10:24] Sanjay Parekh: You and a buddy. Okay. And you split the money 50 — 50?

[00:10:35] David Sturgess: Pretty much, yeah. And then we had a four-wheeler, and we had a trailer that we attached the four-wheeler to, and we would put the lawnmower, weed eater, blower. All that stuff on the back and get a couple of streets and pray the police didn't pull us over for driving a four-wheeler on the road.

[00:10:56] Sanjay Parekh: This is more complex than just taking the lawn mower around and knocking on doors. 

[00:11:00] David Sturgess: It was a neighborhood, but yeah, and then I ended up going and working at Chick-fil-A and he continued and kept it and has built it into a multistate larger business, hardscape landscaping business. 

[00:11:14] Sanjay Parekh: Wow. Oh, that's awesome. So incredible. Starting as a kid, you just, you just built that out. That's incredible. Any other entrepreneurs in the family? People that you've been able to lean on over time? 

[00:11:24] David Sturgess: Not necessarily lean on. My uncle has always done something on the side. He was a preacher. And there was a print shop. He did some carpentry, painting type of things alongside of the church work. And I like to think that it's in the blood, but it is also just that interest, passion, skill. You don't have to have that family member type of thing. And then I've had close friends that have done a lot of entrepreneurial type of things, and they seem to at least eat most of the time. Still have electricity when we came over. 

[00:11:59] Sanjay Parekh: Usually, at least on those days. Yeah. Yeah. We try to make sure as entrepreneurs that the lights are on. Anything that made you nervous in making this leap, starting out the side hustle or even more importantly, going all in, quitting your job and going all in? 

[00:12:12] David Sturgess: Letting my family down. And I think that remains you, at least for me in the sense of...

[00:12:19] Sanjay Parekh: And how many years are you into it from when you went all in? 

[00:12:22] David Sturgess: About five. 

[00:12:23] Sanjay Parekh: Five years, and you're still nervous about letting the family down?

[00:12:26] David Sturgess: It's a different nervous, right? Because, it's been profitable, right? And it's definitely doing what we need it to do. It could do more, right? I've never really been afraid of this particular business having to close, right? But that idea of I always need to be able to do my part at the house. My wife works as well, because that's good for her. And she loves what she's doing. And so that idea of we're doing this together. And I think showing our two daughters that it can be done. Don't get into that just rote, automatic, I've got to do life this way. You want to travel the country, you want to do something on the side, then you go do it. And along those lines, I was glad to see, during the pandemic, my oldest daughter kind of picked up photography. And wanted to start a website and social media. So that was already a fun thing to see her kind of catching on to. And that really helped me to see that like it's yeah, you can do this and have a lot of fun, regardless of age or socioeconomic status.

[00:13:30] Adam Walker: Support for this podcast comes from Hiscox, committed to helping small businesses protect their dreams since 1901. Quotes and information on customized insurance for specific risks are available at Hiscox.com. Hiscox, business insurance experts. 

[00:14:01] Sanjay Parekh: So, one thing that's interesting to me, strikes me as interesting. You talked about being afraid of letting your family down, and you're a therapist. And I think for a lot of people those things are like, oh, they should know not to be afraid because they do that job and they help people, other people. So how do you deal with that? How do you think about that? 

[00:14:26] David Sturgess: I find feelings very annoying. And I know that's ironic for the therapist to say. They're messy, and we can't rely on them. You can look in multiple cultures, philosophy, religious texts, and it's consistent across the board. Feelings are a mess and they're unreliable. We need to pay attention to them in the sense of what is driving that emotion. So, if it's fear, if it's anger, anxiety, sadness. Okay, that's kind of a data thing, right? Being mindful of, this is what I'm feeling, but what's causing that feeling? We don't need to make decisions based on the feeling. We need to make decisions based off of whatever is causing that feeling. If I'm afraid that I'm not going to meet expenses this month. If I get sucked down into that fear rabbit hole, I'm certainly not going to make expenses, let alone a profit. From a business standpoint, what are those KPIs? What's the data telling me? Because that's irrelevant to feelings. That's data that I can problem solve off of. 

[00:15:30] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah. So, the data of you being afraid of letting your family down, how do you deal with that and how does that help drive you? 

[00:15:36] David Sturgess: Track numbers. Okay. And again, I think that's across industry, right? Yeah. It's just what are those data points for your industry, that you need to pay attention to. And there's all sorts of dashboards, again, going back to everybody's got something to sell you kind of thing. There are gobs of dashboards out there, and there's also a free, Google sheet you can create. You just want to make sure that you're tracking the right stuff, right? And you're not tracking something that, ultimately doesn't matter, right? 

[00:16:06] Sanjay Parekh: So, for you, what matters then in the business? Is it number of patients? Is it revenue? What is it that matters? 

[00:16:12] David Sturgess: Three kind of platforms, like from a business owner standpoint I need to be tracking that marketing whether it's the Google analytics, your social media analytics, that back end of the website type of stuff, which again as a clinician, not trained, professionally to do. 

[00:16:32] Sanjay Parekh: And where did you pick up those skills to be able to do that?

[00:16:34] David Sturgess: I did some DIY courses in the beginning because I just couldn't afford to hire somebody out. And now I can, so I gladly got rid of that as fast as I could. Because I know it's something that needs to be done and I have zero desire to mess with it. And tracking those types of numbers, right? And am I connecting with that population that I want to work with, that I'm fueled and passionate about working with, right? QuickBooks, right? Like your financial numbers, right? Being able to look at that dashboard and go, okay. Not every electronic health record has this, but mine does where you can track those new clients and how often are they coming back.

[00:17:22] Sanjay Parekh: So, like your retention rate and churn, how many people are coming and then not coming back. 

[00:17:34] David Sturgess: And then that then would allow us to go in and, okay, why did this person not come back, right? Because that's one of those data things of, was it just not a good fit? Did we not do intake properly? Were they done? As a therapist, I really want to work myself out of a job. At least here In Georgia, there's 10 million people that live in the state, right? I need 20 a week. And so not looking at people as dollar signs. Because there's a whole lot of problems, you know going down that hole but also not being in a mode of desperation. Where I've got to chill out. There's enough. Do good work. And that'll take care of itself, and so to go back to the dashboard kind of things. Not getting too stuck in the QuickBooks to attach that to a client per se, right? And here are not just the monthly expenses. But that annual liability insurance, the continuing education, the taxes, right? And coming up with a good method of managing a healthcare practice, which is a little bit different than the subway shop. 

[00:18:54] Sanjay Parekh: When you started obviously it was just you. You've grown the practice. Now you're a handful of folks, right? How has that process been of managing people and then finding people that kind of fit with what you're trying to accomplish? 

[00:19:08] David Sturgess: Yes. Fit. That, that's important, right? 

[00:19:11] Sanjay Parekh: And how do you screen for that fit for you? To make sure that somebody is before you bring them on. 

[00:19:17] David Sturgess: I think being a business owner, all your stuff is going to come up, right? Whether it's childhood stuff, or money fears, or that imposter syndrome. It's going to come up. And to take it from sole practice owner to a group practice, right? There's been plenty of stuff just in the short five-year span where I'm constantly having to entertain lots of coping skills, to manage that fear or, remember I've got support. I've got. a team. I don't have to know it all because I don't. As simple as that SEO, social media stuff. You want to hire people that are better than you at doing what needs to get done. And navigating those things and learning, okay, from a like personality type, this is who I am. So, I need other people. I am working with a population that I enjoy. I need somebody that also works with this other population because a) I might just not have an interest in working with that population, right? You have doctors that work with all sorts of different parts of the body, right? And some of that is I'm just interested in working with feet and ankles. You can go to a podiatrist versus a dentist or whatever. And the mental health industry is very much like that. And looking for folks that are different, in that interest, but also still complement that mission, purpose of the practice, right? 

In my practice, I do a lot of work with first responders. We can provide faith-based work if folks desire that. That's not something that is forced on any client. And that is a population that has had a huge stigma of mental health for eons, right? So, to find a trusted counselor that also understands Somebody's faith is pretty critical. First responders, another huge population that are, is incredibly guarded. And mental health is very stigmatized. Somebody working for me does not need to have a problem with either one of those populations. It's not uncommon to walk into my office and see a fully uniformed police officer sitting in the lobby or two police cars in the parking lot. Nothing's wrong. They're coming for counseling, but we're working with those people. We're working with that population. And so, to screen folks accordingly is making sure that those values align. And that you might not be directly working with that particular person. But you might work with their child. 

You might do couples counseling. Couples counseling with a responder couple is unique. It's still clinically the same, but there's a culture to the responder community. And if you don't get that, it's not going to be a good fit. From an interviewing standpoint and bringing people onto the team, you need to understand what we are about, who are we working with. Versus, okay, yeah, cool, you've got experience as a clinician or as a car mechanic. I've got an antique Jeep that, but to find a mechanic that will work on it, because evidently mechanics aren't trained to work on 41-year-old vehicles anymore. It doesn't have a computer in it. It's just mechanics, right? Doesn't mean you're a good mechanic for what I need. So, it's asking those questions about your practice and what are you wanting to do. 

[00:23:14] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah. This has been great. I've got one last question for you. Looking back at going through this whole experience for yourself, the side hustle, launching a small business, continuing to run it, is there something that, now knowing what you know, you'd like to go back in time and do differently?

[00:23:36] David Sturgess: Hire sooner. 

[00:23:39] Sanjay Parekh: Hire sooner. Okay. And what kept you from hiring sooner?

[00:23:42] David Sturgess: Fear. Yeah. 

[00:23:45] Sanjay Parekh: Fear because you were afraid of not having the money to pay for it or like what was the fear?

[00:23:49] David Sturgess: The fear of not having money to pay for it, fear of it being the wrong hire, then having to go through all that drama, right? And as a business owner, if you're wanting to scale it and grow it, you got to have bandwidth. You're going to burn the candle on both ends for a period of time. It's a side hustle, and you're transitioning it into your full-time gig. Life balance is seasonal, is what I say. It's not a constant by any means. And I think that idea of fear of letting family down, fear of the money, fear of hiring the right person. I'm missing this softball game; I'm missing this concert. When my kids look back, they're going to have a memory of dad being present. Might not have been at every single thing. But he was present. And then that idea of being able to hire earlier, you bring in more revenue when it's not just you. And so that revenue does allow you to invest. Back into the business and help more people, right? And I think had I hired earlier on…

[00:24:55] Sanjay Parekh: You'd be in a different place now? 

[00:24:57] David Sturgess: Yes, and I think it's also checking yourself on not growing too quick. Because that can be problematic too. 

[00:25:08] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah. David, this has been fantastic. Thanks for joining us. Where can listeners find and connect with you in case they need to? 

[00:25:15] David Sturgess: Yeah, foundrycounseling.com. 

[00:25:22] Sanjay Parekh: Awesome. Thanks so much for being on today.

[00:25:23] David Sturgess: Absolutely.

[00:25:27] Sanjay Parekh: Thanks for listening to this week's episode of the Side Hustle to Small Business Podcast, powered by Hiscox. To learn more about how Hiscox can help protect your small business through intelligent insurance solutions, visit hiscox.com. And if you have a story you want to hear on this podcast, please visit www.hiscox.com/shareyourstory. I'm your host Sanjay Parekh. You can find out more about me at my website, www.sanjayparekh.com.