Carrie Graham, Adult Learning Strategist and Consultant

[00:00:00] Sanjay Parekh: Welcome to The Side Hustle to Small Business Podcast, powered by Hiscox. I'm your host, Sanjay Parekh. Throughout my career, I've had side hustles, some of which have turned into real businesses, but first and foremost, I'm a serial technology entrepreneur. In the creator space, we hear plenty of advice on how to hustle harder and why you can sleep when you're dead.

[00:00:22] On this show, we ask new questions in hopes of getting new answers. Questions like, how can small businesses work smarter? How do you achieve balance between work and family? How can we redefine success in our businesses so that we don't burn out after year three? Every week I sit down with business founders at various stages of their side hustle to small business journey. These entrepreneurs are pushing the envelope while keeping their values. Keep listening for conversation, context, and camaraderie.

[00:00:56] Today's guest is Dr. Carrie Graham, an adult learning strategist and consultant. Carrie specializes in helping small business owners build training programs that not only meet but exceed results. Carrie, welcome to the show.

[00:01:09] Carrie Graham: Oh, Sanjay. Thank you so much for having me.

[00:01:13] Sanjay Parekh: I'm excited to have you on, because I think the, the work that you do is squarely in, uh, kind of impacts the people that in, in general listen to this podcast. So, um, I think we're gonna have a fun conversation about that. But before we get there, give us a little bit about what your background and what got you to where you're today.

[00:01:30] Carrie Graham: I, uh, my background actually started in college athletics. And it was the best stomping ground you had to make quick decisions As a healthcare provider with clear solutions. Fast forward through higher education,

[00:01:46] here I sit helping businesses improve their training programs, and it has been incredible, an incredible journey.

[00:01:55] Sanjay Parekh: Okay. I gotta ask about the athletics. Uh, what kind of athletics and uh, what kind of medicine or, or healthcare were you providing to these, uh, these athletes?

[00:02:03] Carrie Graham: Yeah, so I used to explain to like my mom and my relatives that when you watch a football game or a basketball game on, on TV and someone gets hurt, the person that runs out there is a certified athletic trainer.

[00:02:17] That's what I was trained to do. So my bachelor's and master's are in sports medicine slash athletic training, and I just recently retired my certification.

[00:02:27] Sanjay Parekh: Oh, wow. Okay. So I gotta ask before we move on, uh, what's the one funnest game that you ever went to, that you still remember to this day?

[00:02:38] Carrie Graham: Uh, I'll give you two. One, okay. Was I was working with women's basketball at the University of Washington. We made it to the Elite eight, um, in Florida. Uh, that was Incr, just absolutely incredible. And then another one. One more was, uh, the final four men's ba, I'm sorry, men's soccer at Dartmouth. We had to plow the field before we could play.

[00:03:06] Yes. Like that is a real thing. That's a real thing. But the other one that I'm most, that touches my heart is I went overseas with a mission group and um, we were, the team was playing basketball on dirt. Like dirt courts. Um, and actually someone, one of our players dislocated her shoulder and she was actually a Polish player, so her English was broken. We are in the African, the South African bush. And I'm the only medical professional. I had to relocate her shoulder.

[00:03:40] Sanjay Parekh: Oh my God. Yes. Um, well hopefully those skills don't come in handy nowadays. No. Between training, like somebody dislocated because maybe the training has gone all wrong at that point, if that happens, but, okay. So, so walk me through this. So what made you make the jump from that into training.

[00:04:00] Carrie Graham: Yeah, so the gap between then and now is I left clinical work, so I left athletics and shifted into the classroom. So I spent the bulk of my career as a university professor and in preparing future athletic trainers. So in that I learned curriculum, instruction and design, how to facilitate an effective training program or teaching program, but also the intricacies of learning and the nuances of

[00:04:34] engagement of your audience and, um, most importantly, it it's the problem solving. So the bulk of that time was how can I create a training program that really gets people to learn and build those skills that they need?

[00:04:50] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Was there something that, that really motivated you to make this change? Like you're like, yeah, I, I don't wanna go to, uh, Africa, relocating shoulders with, with a Polish athlete, was that the thing that, that tipped you over? What was it that tipped you over?

[00:05:08] Carrie Graham: No, actually, so I grew up in Connecticut and the, where I was working at the time was in Seattle, so coast to coast. And I had wanted to get back to being on the East coast. Um, but I happened to be in certain circles and I was ultimately recruited to move back to Connecticut and start a teaching career at the University of Connecticut. So it for me, It, none of it was in the plan. Even starting a business wasn't in the plan. It was simply those were opportunities.

[00:05:41] And I've always viewed life as an adventure. And so, okay, well let's, let's try this and see what happens. And it, it has always paid off for me.

[00:05:50] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah. Okay. So let's talk about that. So is this your first time ever being an entrepreneur or have you done anything entrepreneurial, like when you were a kid or something, or any entrepreneurs in the family?

[00:06:00] Carrie Graham: No, never ever, ever, never. So I always have said that like I couldn't sell pants to a naked person. Like I, it is not part of who I am. I've obviously had to learn the, some of the skills to make it happen and to run a business. But no, I, I didn't have a lemonade sand sell candy bars. I heard another guest sold her dad's Beanie Babies, like I did none of that. None of it, yeah. Yeah. Even as a Girl Scout, I can honestly say even as a Girl Scout, like I was always had the lowest sales.

[00:06:42] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah, maybe I, I, that's not one thing that I've asked actually. You know, if you've done Girl Scouts and, and done door-to-door sales. Yeah. Um, I do think door-to-door sales is something that really teaches you a lot about how to engage with people and, and make things happen. Um, so that's super interesting.

[00:06:58] So, yeah. So what was it that then made you decide that you wanted to start your business? You were in academia. What got you to going like, okay, no, I just wanna do this on my own.

[00:07:09] Carrie Graham: Yeah. Honestly, it, it was, it was ramping up. So over the course of teaching and being certified, I would attend our national conferences, and over the years I was getting bored. I'm like, this isn't feeding me, but yet I'm using my vacation time and personal money to go to these conferences. So that frustration was growing. And at the same time, I started getting my PhD in adult learning and I started seeing patterns of how people are attending trainings that are garbage. Like, I'm just gonna say it like they're, they're ineffective, people are sleeping in them.

[00:07:51] Um, they are misaligned with the organization's vision. And that's really what did it for me is that it started to clue me in like, oh, here's an opportunity. But full transparency, in 2020, like many people, my program was closed and I was unemployed. I lost, I was downsized. And in the midst of the pandemic, I couldn't find a job. And I said, well, I have, this PhD has nothing to do with sports medicine. Now's an opportunity for me to leverage it.

[00:08:24] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah, I, it's interesting that you say this because I feel like I've, I, I know a lot of people that go to those like required continuing education classes. They have to for their profession, and I always wonder, are you actually getting anything out of this? Or is this a check mark, checkbox type of thing? And. It sounds like that's what you've witnessed. A lot of people are just there to check the box.

[00:08:45] Carrie Graham: Yeah, so when I was first starting in my career, it was incredible. I was learn I was a sponge. Learn, like most people are, you're learning so much, but once you become skilled and you professional interests evolve. I don't want to say change, but they evolve oftentimes conferences that are structured to meet the needs of the masses. They don't necessarily meet all the needs of certain individuals, and I happen to be one of them, and actually some of my colleagues were, that were around the same age. They were starting, we, that was a common conversation we were having is how like, oh, I'm here, but I don't, I'm not interested in any of the sessions.

[00:09:32] And it's the same topic, so, right. Yeah. Check the box.

[00:09:38] Sanjay Parekh: Same thing over and over again. Yeah. Yeah. So, okay. So let's move to, to you starting this up. Uh, you did it at the same time as I think a lot of people tried to Yeah. Uh, because they were like, well, I'm stuck at home anyways. Might as well try something.

[00:09:50] Um, was there anything that made you nervous about making this leap instead of, you know, doing this instead of looking for another job?

[00:09:57] Carrie Graham: No, because I, I had felt that, you know, toward the end of my tenure, I started feeling frustrated like this, I don't wanna do this anymore. There's gotta be more to it. So I was looking, you know, I was dedicated to my job, but I was, you know, seeing what was out there and I was not landing any conversations or interviews.

[00:10:21] But, so given that I turned in my grades on my final grades on a Monday and that Friday, I was like. What am I gonna do? Like, I think I need to, like, I only have so much money, right? Like I have got to figure this out. And it was honestly in the, like some quiet time alone that during that week, literally it was in that one week that divinely I, I was directed, you need to use the PhD that you were blessed with and you know, there's a problem that exists. You need to work to solve it. That's what I've committed, you know, this stage of my life to is, is addressing, solving the problem of training.

[00:11:10] Adam Walker: Support for this podcast comes from Hiscox committed to helping small businesses protect their dreams since 1901. Quotes and information on customized insurance for specific risks are available at Hiscox.com, Hiscox: business insurance experts.

[00:11:32] Sanjay Parekh: So let's talk about that a little bit. So what is it that you kind of landed on for yourself in terms of training and, and how do you uh, implement this for people that you work with?

[00:11:40] Carrie Graham: Yeah, so I've identified that most organizations that have a training problem, it, it falls into three areas. So they either have an engagement and motivation problem, right?

[00:11:54] So you mentioned the word training. Everybody rolls their eyes, right? So that's one thing. The end turnover related to that, the other problem that they can potentially have is we're gonna give you everything and the kitchen sink, you figure it out for yourself. So how information is organized. And then the last thing is, yes, we've trained them, but they keep making the mistakes or they're not implementing the thing. So it's that application of whatever the skills and knowledge that they're being expected to learn. So that's what I lead with, when I work with organizations, um, sometimes it focuses on the developments, the systems that are in place, all of it. But it, it's, I love it, I love it, and it's consistent. Businesses are co consistently struggling in one, if not all of those three areas.

[00:12:52] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah. It, it seems to me though, that there's a kind of a related thing that happens here, um, in a lot of businesses, uh, where employees are just not engaged. Yeah. Right. Like they, they honestly, they just don't care. Um, there, I think in almost any business of more than one person, you're going to have some segment of people that, that don't care.

[00:13:13] Right. Yeah. And no amount of training is going to solve for that. And so how do you think about that for organizations that you work with? Thinking about like, look, there's training is only gonna be able to do so much, and, and how do you deal with some of these other issues that are really impacting productivity, performance, effectiveness, all of those things that are so important?

[00:13:37] Carrie Graham: Yeah, so I, I encourage businesses and, and leaders in particular to one, think about their employees as not as a resource, as a commodity. That's first and foremost. These are human beings and they bring their full lives and experiences to the table. So that's a big shift, that these are our greatest asset and we have to treat it, uh, treat them as valuable. So it's no longer viewing, uh, training as a check mark, but rather. What's important to you? What do you want to learn?

[00:14:15] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah.

[00:14:16] Carrie Graham: What you know, if it's a group of individuals who've been with the company and they're nearing retirement, And they're disengaged. Well, perhaps it's because they're simply holding on until they retire. And that's not to dismiss them, but rather let's integrate them into sharing their knowledge. So it's, there's, I always encourage people to say, yeah, we'll get to the logistics of training, but let's talk about the people. What is your perception of the people that you want to train? And how are you supporting them from a human perspective?

[00:14:53] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah. I it, that's a very interesting point. I think, um, you know, like making sure that you understand people's purpose, uh mm-hmm. And making sure that you're supporting that. And, and it's, it's funny because it's something that I've always done, you know, almost anybody that works for me, I always tell them at the front end.

[00:15:11] I'm like, look, if you're ever not happy working here, you tell me and we'll try to fix it. And if we can't fix it right, I will help you get another job. Yes. Like, I don't want you working with me If you're not happy there, it doesn't help anybody. No. Um, if that happens, unfortunately and, and I don't know how to get over this next part of this hump, and, and maybe you have advice for this, and unfortunately a lot of people don't take me up on this because they, they feel it's that traditional thing. If I tell you I'm not happy, then you're just gonna fire me. Absolutely. Um, type of thing. And, and that's, this is the reason why I say this thing, because I don't want that to happen. I, you know, I, I view people that I work with as opportunities for the future, even if they're not working with me, if I treat them well, they're going to continue to refer business to me. Yes. Um, yes. And, and, and some of the people that I've worked with over years, even people that I've fired have still continued to refer people because I've treated them properly and well, even if I've had to let them go. Like, yeah. So I, I don't know, I don't know what the question is there and all that moras of stuff I didn't know, but I think there was a question of like, what kind of advice do you have for somebody to say like.

[00:16:15] Look, you know? Yes, I agree. Don't treat them like assets, you know, or like just cogs in the machine, human resources like they're actual people, um, and how do you support them, but how do you also keep them engaged to share some of that stuff that traditionally and historically we've been taught not to share that stuff because it can have a bad outcome for you.

[00:16:35] Carrie Graham: Yeah. So it's one thing if you are saying. I wanna know, I wanna know if you're not happy, but yet your culture doesn't, it's not reflective of that statement. So there's gotta be some consistency there in building trust. Um, can they really trust that You mean what you're saying? And the other part is, is you don't necessarily have to continually ask, well, if you're not happy, just tell me. If you're not happy, just tell me. Right? Like. Eh, okay. But rather, what are some other conversations that you can ask or engage in that would clue you in? Right? Or if you ask them, Hey, what are your career goals? And they're like, I don't know. Well, hey, come on. We've all been there, right? Like, why don't you, is it something, is this part of your career plan or are you thinking about something else?

[00:17:30] Right? So you can have conversations to open the door and reflect the information that you want without saying, just tell me.

[00:17:40] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah.

[00:17:40] Carrie Graham: Just tell me. Right? Yeah. So I would say there's that element of it, and then when it gets to training and you're trying to engage them, I always tell clients, Sanjay, and you're my new best friend, so I'm gonna tell you, it's not about you. The training, it's not about you. Right? Yeah. It's about them. So you ask. Okay, you guys, we're gonna talk about these pens today and how to construct these pens, but before we talk about the updates for construction, what's your experience been with them? And then you have to be confident enough to be quiet and let them talk. Hey little Sanjay, I haven't heard from you. What are you, what are you thinking about? Or, hey, blue shirt, Sanjay. I know you've been here for a while. What out of all your years of experience, what can you share?

[00:18:32] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:18:33] Carrie Graham: That's how you engage people. You really have to make it about them and not about you.

[00:18:38] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah. I think it's, I, I, you know, as you're talking, I'm like thinking about stories from my own past. I, I think it, it remains a struggle just because of in general, what people are taught in terms of what they should and shouldn't share? Um, yeah, like I remember a time there, there's a person that used to work for me. We're still good friends to this day. When she quit, she started crying, uh, in, in quitting. Like it's, it's not the experience I'd ever had before. She was so upset that she was having to quit because she was wanting to go onto this other opportunity. And to me, like in, in reflecting back, it's like, well, I think I did all the right things because you felt so bad about quitting.

[00:19:18] Mm-hmm. Um, even though it was the right move for you, that I feel like I've developed those good relationships. So, uh, you know, how can you use training then, like I obviously that that's one part of it, like sitting back and listening. How do you use training to continue to develop the culture that you want to have in your organization? Have you seen, uh, ways that that's been done that's been successful?

[00:19:41] Carrie Graham: Yeah. One of the things, one of a key, uh, element that I encourage is that include leadership or leadership needs to be included. And so often I have found that, oh, we create, we wanna create a culture where people learn and share information.

[00:20:02] But it's just for this group segment of the population. No, no. If you're gonna create a a culture, it needs to be widespread. Yeah. So that means everyone from the C-suite to the, you know, the CEO, all the way down to the people who literally just signed their paperwork, right? We all need to be present now, present at different levels, you know, you decide, but everyone needs to be a participant in building this culture of, hey, when you join us, we are all a part of learning, and that, that requires a shift. Yeah, it definitely requires a shift in thinking, and that's one of the first things that I start with is let's, okay, let's, let's shift how you view training.

[00:20:53] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah. Um, okay. I've gotta ask you a question about, uh, the business itself because, um, as I'm thinking about it, I, I think your, your job must be fascinating, uh, especially for somebody like me, because you're getting to go into all of these businesses and learn about all the different things that they do, right?

[00:21:10] Carrie Graham: Yes, yes.

[00:21:11] Sanjay Parekh: What's the one, is there one that stands out most that it was so fascinating as a business that you learned so much about? Um, in doing this training and te tell us about that. If there's one, Hey, I can see it in your eyes. There was one that stands out to you.

[00:21:25] Carrie Graham: Yeah, so I will say I am always honored when an, when a business and I view it as an invitation, they invite me into their home because that is like, you invite a stranger into your home, they're gonna see the cobwebs in the corner. They're gonna see the kids who are misbehaving, like the dogs that are eating up stuff. Like, and so I don't take it lightly like I want people to know. I do not take it lightly. But I have seen, I've sat in some meetings with business leaders where I'm thinking to myself, Carrie, or actually, uh, as a Christian, I'm thinking, God.

[00:22:06] Give me the right words to say to this person because it's all wrong what they're saying. Like, I just need the right words. So like I have had those experiences. Um, I've also talked with business leaders who are broken, meaning they are heartbroken. Their, their spirit is broken because they cannot figure it out on their own, and they believe that they should be able to.

[00:22:34] So it's very interesting. It's a lot like when I was an athletic trainer and players would come to me privately and they'd be like, Carrie, X, Y, and Z happened. And I don't want my coach to know and like, am I gonna get drug tested for like all the things like you just Right. And I just sit and you listen. You have to, well I have had to learn. And again, being an athletic trainer really taught me this, how to listen to what people say and what they are not saying.

[00:23:08] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah. Yeah. Um, okay. Let's talk about the business a little bit. You made this to me pretty monumental shift from academia, uh, into being an entrepreneur. How, when you made that shift, how did you start finding clients for yourself and getting the word out? Uh, because before then, you really weren't talking to any of these people. Right? So, so how did you get going on this?

[00:23:32] Carrie Graham: I would say, so I did join a group. I will say that like I, and again, like it was that Friday, the deadline, they were closing their enrollment and I was like, oh my goodness. Gotta get in here. because I need help. Right. So like, that's why it was a week. So I was in a gr a year long group program and I met a lot of people there and a lot of my first clients came from being in that group.

[00:23:58] Sanjay Parekh: And what was the focus of that program? What, what was it about?

[00:24:02] Carrie Graham: It was, it was a, a group to support women in building businesses. Okay. Yep. So that, there was that, but one of the frustrations that I had early on. Was language and use of language. So what I believed, like I would have a thought and I would reach out to someone, let's just say on LinkedIn in an effort to see where they are, how I could support them. And I would be using words that I thought and meanings that I thought everyone was using and that wasn't the case.

[00:24:39] So for example, in human resources. I would say training, but their interpretation of what that meant was something totally different and so interesting. Yeah. And so for me it was really, I had a hard time trying to understand language from an operational definition perspective and making sure I was using the same words that they wanted to use and that, I would say was one of the most frustrating things about getting started and transitioning.

[00:25:14] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Um, okay, so you've been doing this now for a few years. Yes. Yes. What's, what's your perspective on the business? Like, what do you want this to become, you know, in the next year, the next five years, next 10 years, whatever it is.

[00:25:28] Carrie Graham: Yeah. My goal is to... so let me back up and say this. I have a passion for the employees. My heart breaks when to know that there are employees who are sitting like I was sitting through trainings and they're being depleted, and then they go home frustrated. They're not the best selves for themselves, for their loved ones and for their community.

[00:25:55] So that is why I do what I do, because we spend so much time at work. So my goal is really to help as many businesses as possible. Um, I haven't put a number on it yet, but I guess you've helped me rise to the challenge 200 businesses right in the next few years to to change how they view and, and use training to support their employees. It's really important to me that these shifts need to make, make they need to happen. Yeah.

[00:26:26] Sanjay Parekh: It's interesting to me that you're saying, um, businesses and you're not talking about the number of employees that you've impacted. Um, I don't know. Why are you thinking about it that way instead of employees? Because your passion is people and the employees, but you're saying businesses.

[00:26:42] Carrie Graham: Yep. And it's because I can't get in front of the employees themselves. Yeah. I can get in front of the decision makers of the organization and those who support or build the training programs. Got it. And so I know that the work that I do with a business or an organization, it will in fact directly impact a larger group of people.

[00:27:10] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah. Yeah. It's an interesting way of thinking about it. Yeah, for sure. Um, okay. Uh, I got a couple questions for you, uh, last questions here for you. Okay. Okay. You've been doing this now for a little bit. Um, yep. Is there anything like, thinking back now over the years that if you could go back in time and do differently, you would and, and if so, what is that?

[00:27:28] Carrie Graham: In my life or just in this business journey?

[00:27:31] Sanjay Parekh: Well, I mean, I was thinking the business journey. Okay. Life might be good too, but let's start with the business plan.

[00:27:38] Carrie Graham: Okay. Um, in the business journey. Honestly, I would say I would put my ego aside and I would hire help a lot sooner than I had, and that's a hard, it was a hard one for me to realize, and given that I had like a few years before, had received my PhD. And so it wasn't a sense of arrogance that, oh, I, you know, I'm the greatest since sliced bread, but rather I am smart enough that I can figure this out. I have a p, I've been doing this for 20 years, the work for 20 years, and I have a PhD. I should be able to figure it out in. You know, all business owners, especially if this is your first go at it, please extend yourself some grace and recognize, yes, you've been doing that thing for so long, but running a business and different elements of running a business you haven't done and that it's, it's just, okay.

[00:28:54] Yeah. So that would be the one thing that I've really, I'm not gonna say I regret it because I've learned the lessons. I can share it with others. I definitely would've done different.

[00:29:06] Sanjay Parekh: How, how long did it take you to realize that you needed help and get help versus how much earlier do you think you should have done that?

[00:29:15] Carrie Graham: Well, you don't know what you don't know, and that, that is a really true statement. And so I, I didn't realize all the intricacies of it, so I thought being in a group, I'd get all the answers. It got me started and then I went for a little while and then I, I was able to bring someone on to help set me up from a tech perspective, oh, I got it.

[00:29:40] It's all gravy. I'm good. Right? And then a year later, oh no, I need help with a marketing strategy. Right? So it's the you won't know until you go through the process what you need help with, but not delaying that decision. Like as soon as you've right, tried to address something a couple times and you are, it's causing you more frustration. That's the red flag to say mm-hmm. Let me find someone to help me do this. Let me please.

[00:30:11] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah. In, in, in the long run, it's a lot less expensive just to pay somebody and get that help mm-hmm. Rather than just keeping toiling away at it. Yeah. Um, yeah. Yeah. Fantastic advice. Um, okay, last one for you. Uh, what would you say to somebody who's thinking about making the leap like you did and either, you know, starting a side hustle or, or a full-time business?

[00:30:32] Carrie Graham: I would say you have everything you need. You honestly, you really do have everything you need. Take some time to sit quietly and reflect on all your experiences. Even if they don't seem like they're related, they are providing you with something, whether it's skills or knowledge. Those past experiences are providing you with something that you need and can leverage for this endeavor. So you, you really have to take the time to quietly sit with your thoughts, be reflective, and if you are unwilling to do that, you're really gonna struggle as a business owner. That is true.

[00:31:17] Sanjay Parekh: Yeah. Yeah. Great advice, uh, Carrie, how can our listeners find and connect with you online?

[00:31:24] Carrie Graham: Yeah, I would love for them to visit my website at drcarriegraham.com. There are so many resources that I want to share. They are free. And there's also ways that you, people can reach out to me and ask me questions or connect if they want to, but the website is hands down, the best place to go.

[00:31:47] Sanjay Parekh: Awesome. Thanks so much for being on today.

[00:31:49] Carrie Graham: Thank you so much for having me, Sanjay. This has been fun.

[00:31:55] Sanjay Parekh: Thanks for listening to this week's episode of the Side Hustle to Small Business podcast, powered by Hiscox. To learn more about how Hiscox can help protect your small business through intelligent insurance solutions, visit Hiscox.com. And to hear more Side Hustle to Small Business stories, or share your own story, please visit Hiscox.com/side-hustle-to-small-business. I'm your host, Sanjay Parekh. You can find out more about me at my website, SanjayParekh.com.